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14 January 2009 @ 06:42 pm
this is also not so bad, part ii  
I'm partway through Breaking Dawn and I want to establish something: I was looking forward to hating these books. But fate has tossed me a curve. At most, I was expecting that the books would be enjoyable despite being poorly written, but even on a technical level, they are just not that bad.

Okay, so maybe Twilight itself sucks. A book that doesn't get good until three-hundred-odd pages in is not a good book. Period. However, the sequels just don't have that problem. 1. I'm enjoying them; can't put them down. 2. They are, for the most part, reasonably well-written. These are not bad books. They are good books with moments of bad, such as the stupid name that Bella gives her kid, what happens to Jacob, Edward's I-am-emo-hear-me-whine, and that whole thing with sensing relationships being a superpower.

What seems to be going on here is that lot of the concepts are stupid, but the execution is usually passable-to-great. The vampire baby thing is a WTF, but the page-by-page of it makes things more believable. The Romeo and Juliet and Wuthering Heights metaphors are done pretty well. And maybe I'm projecting from what I knew ahead of time, but the development of most of the cast is all right too. The biggest weakness is probably that Bella and Edward could stand to have more personality, and that is a pretty big weakness, but overall, these books do not merit the level of criticism that I've seen them get.

...of course, they don't merit the level of mindless praise, either. No, Bella is not a great role model for our young people, but she's not the anti-Christ of feminism either. Yes, Bella does seem to be made deliberately innocuous so that the reader can sub in her own persona, but my SueDAR has been staying on relatively low blip. Ditto for Edward as the non-threatening female fantasy.

Just to put my words in perspective (and to make sure that the folks who showed up to see me slam something go home with some gore on their raincoats), I would like to point out a few authors who suck more than Stephanie Meyer and yet have managed to dodge the sledgehammer:

Terry Goodkind—I read the first two books of his Sword of Truth series. The characters were appealing and I enjoyed reading about them, but every time he wrote himself into a corner, he'd invent some new magical beast or spell that we'd never heard of before. Plot point ex machina. Even if some of Meyer's concepts, such as the child vampires, seem like afterthoughts, she and her editors at least had the presence of mind to go back and work references to the into the beginning of each book before they were printed up.

George "Sure the R.R. Wasn't My Publicist's Idea" Martin—Some of you may have heard my rant about this author before. This is another case where I enjoyed reading it even though the technique left something to be desired. Martin's biggest problem is that he slathers on the sleaze. I like sex and violence as much as the next person, but there's so much of it in his Song of Ice and Fire that I have to dig through it to get to the story. It's as if he thinks I'm too stupid to pay attention unless someone is getting raped and beaten on every other page. Again, the Twilight books don't have this problem: The violence and what sex there is are directly connected to the plot. This isn't Song's only problem, but I'll sum up that Martin's books are at least nominally written for adults and they managed to insult my intelligence. Meyer's books are at least nominally for written teenagers and they didn't.

David Eddings—Eddings is probably more skilled than Goodkind and Martin. He makes almost none of their mistakes. So why does he deserve to be slammed and parodied? I used to reread his books every year, but looking back, they were pretty bland. He's unoriginal. His characters, though likable, are carbon copies of almost every high fantasy cliche out there ...and that's just sticking to his pre-Redemption of Althalus books. I've heard the later ones are pretty putrid. Something about pink dolphins.

Kevin J. Anderson—This guy doesn't deserve to be on this list, but not for the same reasons as Eddings. He's not good enough to clean Goodkind's pipe or emboss the "R.R." on Martin's business cards. Jedi Search was just your garden-variety bad, but Frank Herbert is doing step aerobics in his grave over what this guy and Brian Herbert did to the Dune universe. A few weeks ago, I saw this guy's new Superman novel and I figured I'd flip it open to see if Anderson had gotten any better since House Atreides made me want to gouge my eyes out with its lame, hackneyed plotlines and repetitive, graceless prose. It took two seconds to find out that he hadn't. Who is this man blackmailing to keep giving him writing jobs and what does he have on them?

EDIT: I am adding Diana Wynne Jones to this list, based solely on Howl's Moving Castle. No, it's not that we need at least one woman to demonstrate equal-opportunity sucking. It's that Howl's Moving Castle has more and more serious story-level flaws than any of the Twilight books do. (Please note that the Miyazaki film of the same name, while awesome, has a very different story from the book and also, SPOILERS.) Yes, HMC has some great moments, great images and a cool and original premise, but the story just doesn't add up at the end. The parts with the poem about a woman true and fair feel really forced and the ending in which it turns out that the schoolteacher is the fire demon is completely unexplained. How did the fire demon manage to disguise itself as human walking around when Calcifer can't even leave his fireplace? She could have cleared that up by giving Calcifer some limited powers of disguise, but the older demon appears to have none of Cal's weaknesses. The Twibooks don't always manage to come full-circle, but Meyer does manage to establish the rules of her universe in a way that gives the story an okay foundation.

EDIT: I am adding Philip Pullman based solely on Northern Lights/The Golden Compass. (Why solely? Because it left me with no desire to read the sequels.) NL/TGC has two big problems that the Twibooks do not: First, it is completely ineffective at achieving its author's expressed purpose. It's supposedly an indictment of organized religion, but there's nothing in the book's actual content that portrays religion as bad. Oh sure, Pullman tells that the Magisterium has "taken over every aspect of life," but we never see religion take any role in any aspect of life. We never see anyone anyone go to church or think in religious ways. (Counterexample: In The Other Boleyn Girl, most of the characters believe that sins cause birth defects.) We can counter (and hope) that Twilight was not written to make a political statement, but then there's the second problem: This is not the only time when Pullman tells what he should have shown. For example, Pullman repeatedly tells us that touching another human being's daimon is taboo, but there's no power behind it. His introduction to the character Lyra has her engaging in street fights with other children. Why not have someone accidentally hit someone else's daimon with a mudball and then show everyone freak out and ostracize the perp? Meyer doesn't just tell us that vampires live by a code of secrecy; she shows Rosalie and the Volturi having aneurysms about it.

EDIT: Adding Piers Anthony and I can't believe it took me this long. People criticize the unhealthy romantic relationships in the Twibooks, but oh God, the ones in Mr. Anthony's novels would make a would make a polyamorous symphorophiliac with a haddock fetish go "Um, what?" To give just one example, the protagonist of the first Xanth book (of which I've read many; they're rich and entertaining) discovers the perfect woman: She's under a spell that makes her transition from stupid to average to smart and back once every lunar month. At the same time, she's transitioning from beautiful to average to ugly and back so that she's smart when she's ugly, average when she's average, etc. The protagonist figures, "This is great! Any man would be intimidated by a woman who's smart and pretty! Also, she looks different every month, so I will have the variety without which any man would get bored." Other books feature middle-aged guys sleeping with underaged girls (there's a lot of that, actually), female characters as temptressy minxes who can't function without a man and don't get me started on the thing with the panties... The fact that I grew up reading Anthony's books is probably why Meyer doesn't set off my freak alarm.
 
 
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not_tragedi: twi: rick-rolled Edward[info]not_tragedi on January 15th, 2009 12:55 am (UTC)
...not that bad.

Seriously, that's what I've been saying all along. If anything, read these for the sheer WTF laughiness that the storyline draws to itself. And I'm glad you've read them simply because I knew you would get at least a giggle out of the pages of teenage-life-sucks angst.
Ithilwen: PinkAv[info]darkfrog24 on January 15th, 2009 01:27 am (UTC)
But that's not why I read them. I don't experience so-bad-it's-good. Never have. I'm simply able to compartmentalize. If a story has, say, good characters but a really stupid, hackey plot, then I'm able to enjoy one and not enjoy the other at the same time. I was expecting the Twiquels to be good on one level and bad on another, but they were good on two levels.
emrlddragon: worst thing[info]emrlddragon on January 15th, 2009 01:26 am (UTC)
It is not the books in and of themselves that I dislike. It is the standard they set. Books that are described as "not that bad" have no business being as popular as the series is. Especially, when you have series like the Dresden Files that are so very creative, imaginative, and deep (not to mention being well written -- 'tis a concept I'm sure); but get no love.
Ithilwen: catolantern[info]darkfrog24 on January 15th, 2009 01:28 am (UTC)
Now that I can get. These books just hit the right moment, like John Livingston Seagull or something.

On the same vein, we should beat up on hacks like KJA more.
Terra Firma: Underworld | Ridiculousness[info]last_archangel on January 15th, 2009 02:13 am (UTC)
I've done my bitching about Twilight, I admit, but the truth is, I don't really care about the book. I've read plenty of bad books in my life and haven't died or even lost that many brain cells. What bothers me are the psychotic Twifans.
Ithilwen: PinkAv[info]darkfrog24 on January 15th, 2009 03:51 am (UTC)
Heh. I can practically hear Robert Pattinson wondering why he ever wished to be a movie star.
Kat Morning: Vampire[info]katmorning on January 15th, 2009 10:58 am (UTC)
I agree. It's the fans that bother me far more than the books themselves do. And their insistence that I should share their twitterpated adoration.

Thank you. No. I'll go play with my own vampires and leave you to your sparklepires.
oknazevad[info]oknazevad on January 18th, 2009 04:58 am (UTC)
Andersen is the worst kind of hack. Because he made me, one of the biggest Star Wars lifer geeks out there bored with it. If never had the misfortune of reading his Dune tripe, and com what I've heard, I'm fortunate for that.
Ann[info]harlyn on May 13th, 2009 05:34 am (UTC)
I just wandered over from your ff page, and found your analysis here interesting. I basically agree with your view of the first book. It's definitely more innocuous than many reviews would suggest, though it's bizarre how popular they've become. There were parts I really enjoyed, and it was fairly gripping. While on the one hand, Bella's endless thoughts on Edward's perfect beauty were irritating, I liked the atmosphere of the story. I recognized the Wuthering Heights homage (which is actually my all-time favorite book) in some of the names as well as the premise, though Meyer didn't sell me on the soul-bond quite the same way. Maybe unintentionally, it reminded me more in her descriptions of Forks. Bella didn't set off my Sue-dar, but Edward totally did. Yes he abandons her in the second book, but only because he's so perfect and noble! It seemed like a contrived source of conflict, and bothered me to the point where I wasn't interested in continuing. I might pick them up again since you say they get better.
Eddings...I love the Belgariad and Mallorean dearly, but in the Rivan Codex he actually claims to have started with standard fantasy archetypes, and just fleshed them out a little. Nonetheless, he's brilliant in his own way. Or at least that's how I explain my high school obsession...
I'd say the same about Diana Wynne Jones--brilliant in her own way. She's one of my favorite authors, but she does have a tendency to create these fantastic adventure plots and resolve them in *very* weird ways. Her characters can also be pretty forgettable(other than Chrestomanci, of course). However, for sheer creativity alone I still consider her an excellent author overall, and easily a class above Meyer. I recommend Charmed Life or Dark Lord of Derkholm as better Jones books with better endings, if you're interested in more of her writing...
(Anonymous) on July 30th, 2009 06:48 pm (UTC)
dwj
Just to put in my two cents. Diana Wynne Jones doesn't deserve to be on any list of bad writers. Try reading more than one book before posting anything. ^^ She's an excellent writer who can weave a plot with many dangling strings and pull everything together in a way that makes sense in the end. Plus her storytelling style and humor is hilarious! Also, imagine, Elda is a Griffin and also every bit a young girl. Not many writers can pull off those types of characterizations.

Stephanie Meyer, while not mediocre, isn't very good either. I think you're right in that she gets criticized because her books are being hyped as excellent pieces of literature when it is nothing more than a hack romance with vampires. On my part, I think Bella is a self-absorbed ninny and Meyer's four books should be shortened into one.
Ithilwen: Fall colors[info]darkfrog24 on July 30th, 2009 07:09 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
who can weave a plot with many dangling strings and pull everything together in a way that makes sense in the end

Maybe she can, but I haven't seen her do it. That's the exact opposite of what happens in HMC.

I don't know about Meyer not being mediocre. Her books have some good qualities but I don't know if they have enough to pull them out of the hit-or-miss pile. "Not that bad" is the best description I can find for them. The biggest discrepancy is that New Moon sets Jacob up as mature, kind, responsible, caring and relatively well matched to Bella, but noooo, she's somehow destined to really be with the unstable self-hating vampire who will just commit suicide if he can't have her. The only thing that causes this to have any sense is that Bella is pretty off-kilter herself.

I think the Cleolinda put it best: This would really be a good story if it took the line, "He's a vampire stalker and she's the one girl on the planet kinky enough to get off on it" instead of playing Bella as the everygirl.
(Anonymous) on July 31st, 2009 03:56 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
http://darkfrog24.livejournal.com/254584.html

You haven't seen her do it cause you've read only one. She's written a ton of them. All I'm saying is don't relegate her to a bad writers list all because you've read one book. Well, actually, you can, since this is your blog but then it's not a significant opinion then, is it?

I disagreed with the HP book burners not because they didn't like HP but because they judged it without ever reading it. When I started reading Twilight, I thought it was somewhat slow but okay. Somewhere in the middle of it I started getting this irritated feeling. Eventually I realized it was because Bella was rubbing me the wrong way.

And I tried, believe me. I read all 4 books (well, except the last 200 pages of breaking dawn, instant conveniently explained super vampire powers that were not the norm was just too much) even though there were plenty of times when I wanted to chuck each book against the wall. Why? Because I wanted to be be able to honestly say that I read it all and it sucked. Jacob is a sweetheart and Alice and Jasper are dears. Edward did a complete about face from controlling stalker to spineless footrug. Bella is a twit.

And one last thing, Meyer shouldn't have written in first person from a self-absorbed twit's point of view. It doesn't make for an interesting story.

~Haruko
(harukohaha@yahoo.com)
Ithilwen: Twinkies[info]darkfrog24 on July 31st, 2009 06:19 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
You haven't seen her do it cause you've read only one. She's writteYou haven't seen her do it cause you've read only one.

...which is why I've made sure that the post explicitly acknowledges this and does not do so for other authors.

Yes, Twilight has almost no action until page 372—yes, I remembered the actual number—when James and posse shows up. That was when I really started to enjoy myself. And I understand that the buildup is necessary so that I would care whether or not James turns Bella into garden mulch when the time came, but did there have to be so much of it? That was why the studio was foolish to dismiss Catherine Hardwick. She managed to take a mostly stupid book and turn it into an only somewhat stupid movie.

If the Twilight books bothered you that much, why did you keep reading them? (This is not a code for "don't read them"; I actually mean it.) I read Eddings and Goodkind and Martin because I enjoyed the books despite their flaws. It was the same deal with the Twinkle series.
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 01:26 am (UTC)
Re: dwj
Nah, they didn't bother me THAT much. I've read lots of Agatha Christie and Ellery Queen and even Judy Devereaux in my time and a lot of those I liked considering they're hack too. Some of Meyer's characters where lovable enough and some of her action was okay but there's no substance mainly because of her protagonist and various predictable plot twists. Give me Bartimaeus (Stroud) or Philip Pullman anyday. Or give me Diana!

See, I wasn't really here to debate what people think of Twilight. In fact, I have someone I love and respect who is very much into Twilight, the movie (meh). And I also have my own guilty pleasures (shoujo manga). But I just could not react to you dissing DWJ after reading just one book. ^^

Haruko

P.S. You write better than Meyer.
Ithilwen: I sparkled for a girl.[info]darkfrog24 on August 1st, 2009 01:53 am (UTC)
Re: dwj
P.S. You write better than Meyer.

Aw, thanks! Now if I wrote better than Stephen King, that would be something.

Actually, I've been pondering putting Pullman on this list. Northern Lights/The Golden Compass is crummier than Twilight, and for a very interesting reason. You know what? Up he goes!
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 03:03 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
Lol! Which just proves we have totally different tastes in books because right after reading the first book I just had to read the next book.

Stephen King is an icon. ^^ Incidentally, he said in an interview when asked to compare Meyer to JKR, "The real difference is that Jo Rowling is a terrific writer and Stephenie Meyer can't write worth a darn."
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 03:05 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b82354_smackdown_of_week_stephen_king_vs.html
Ithilwen: You didn't see what you thought you saw.[info]darkfrog24 on August 1st, 2009 03:10 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
I was referring to the incident in which Meyer claimed that she was a better writer than Stephen King, which is what I believe precipitated said response.

NL/TGC is another book that I'd classify as "not that bad." It has some problems, but it's nothing to get in a twist about. I find, however, that its flaws make it a very poor choice for any school reading list except as an example of what not to do.
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 03:21 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
I don't think a school reading list is the place for books such as these. They books would go right over most children's heads.

You were referring to what?
Ithilwen: Gateway Drug[info]darkfrog24 on August 1st, 2009 03:25 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
Stephanie Meyer said that she was a better writer than Stephen King. Immediate ruckus.

I don't mind giving children books that have elements that will go over their heads so long as the surface story will make sense to them. I can appreciate The Matrix as an action movie even if I don't know the details of all the philosophy buried in it. "The desert of the real" sounds like a cool description of the wasted planet even if I don't know its other meaning.

The best example is probably Fraggle Rock. That show covered the basic kid-show topics like friendship and sharing but it also got into things like ecology, interdependent populations and culture clash. Years later, when I was learning about homeostasis, the concept felt weirdly familiar.
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 03:48 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
When you're trying to get prepubescents who have no interest in reading to read, you shouldn't start with something controversial that has a lot of subtle elements in it. (Although I admit I know of several 11 year olds who have read Pullman and loved it.) Diana Wynne Jones I would put on a reading list.

P.S. Hehehe, it seems it is on the california reading list for 6-8th grade.
Ithilwen: Gateway Drug[info]darkfrog24 on August 1st, 2009 04:00 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
I disagree. It is okay to give kids of, say, eleven or twelve years a book that has lots of subtle elements so long as those deeper layers are not necessary to understanding and enjoying the book on its surface. They gave us Johnny Tremain in seventh grade, The Pushcart War and Where the Red Fern Grows in sixth. All three of those have plenty of tricks and details and a few deeper themes, but even if a kid doesn't notice or care about that, they're all still cool stories of a kid during the revolution, a bunch of funny street vendors and a boy and his hunting dogs. NL/TGC, for example, regardless of any statements that it makes or fails to make, holds up as an adventure story.

Why does that not surprise me?

Edited at 2009-08-01 04:01 pm (UTC)
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 04:27 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
I get what you're saying. I had to read your post several times before I got less confused. No fault of yours, of course, I'm simply sleep deprived.

Let's put this simply, what I'm saying is books (like movies) have, shall I say, ratings? I'm talking about the reason Silas Marner is for 9-12 and Cat in the Hat is for K-2.

Oh, I got what you meant by adventure story with deeper undertones but what's your point again? Any you're not surprised by...?

I'm now thinking if there's a book I've read that I feel I wouldn't like my kids to read - yet.
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 04:37 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
Hey, I gotta get some sleep. Before that, I gotta call my son's coach to find out what time is team picture taking is later today. So anyway, it was nice doing this with you. Night!

P.S. Did you like Tolkien?
Ithilwen: catolantern[info]darkfrog24 on August 1st, 2009 04:39 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
Like and admire. I must admit bias, though. I was raised on the stuff.
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 05:04 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
Nice. So was I. ^^ He practically started the genre. Nyt nyt.
Ithilwen: DoNotCaffeinate[info]darkfrog24 on August 1st, 2009 05:14 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
Practically, theoretically, the works. Tolkein did start the genre. I find it ironic, though, that almost every writer in fantasy imitates Tolkein's results but not his methods.

Tolkein was original in that he took legends from the British Isles and extrapolated them backwards, back to when the little elves and spirits were gods.
Ithilwen: Fall colors[info]darkfrog24 on August 1st, 2009 04:37 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
Well a content-based rating system might have managed to clue my mother in to the idea that her twelvish daughters weren't just reading wholesome fairy stories in those Piers Anthony books. I swear, that dude is messed up. As for age recommendations, I'd find them too restrictive. One of my jobs is for an educational children's book and software company, and I keep warning my boss that a fifth grader will not want to be caught reading a book that says "second grade" on the cover.

Not surprised that, if a place was to recommend HDM for children, that that place would be California. Perhaps it is an unkind stereotype.
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 04:45 pm (UTC)
Re: dwj
Stereotypes or not, I love Pullman so it's fine with me. I'm Asian too and a Roman Catholic so you would think I'd be against something like Pullman but I like the way he makes his readers think.

I also read a lot of manga (Japanese comic books) and they range from simple love or adventure stories to such complex themed stories. One thing though, when I go to the bookstore and see yaoi manga, I wonder if the parents realize what their kids are reading. I don't have anything against it, sometimes I read it, too. But three years ago, I wouldn't have let my kids read it.

G'dnight!
(Anonymous) on August 1st, 2009 05:32 pm (UTC)
hullo
It's 11:50. I have no time to sleep. *grumble* Need coffee. So what ya doin? So what other books do you like? You should try Stroud and see if you hate it. I like Colfer, too.
Ithilwen: catolantern[info]darkfrog24 on August 1st, 2009 07:35 pm (UTC)
Re: hullo
Try Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson. The ending doesn't quite come together, but what a ride!

It's got four protagonists, third person. One of them is a codebreaker during WWII, another one is a Marine Ranger, the third is an engineer for the Japanese military and the fourth is the codebreaker's grandson in 1999. It won me over from the second page, which showed the Marine describing a Friday afternoon in Shanghai on the eve of the Japanese invasion. For someone who could make such an obvious mistake (that the real-life military has Marines and Army Rangers not no Marine Rangers), it's fantastically well-researched.
(Anonymous) on November 20th, 2009 04:35 pm (UTC)
Ahahaha! You like the Twilight series over HMC? Hehehehe, I can't even begin to compare the two authors. But let's try. DWJ- light, subtle but meaty and substantial. Meyer- superficial trash.

Congratulations to Meyer, she's making a ton of money. But fans don't delude yourselves into thinking she's in any class near DWJ, Gaiman, Tolkien or even Rowling.
Ithilwen: catolantern[info]darkfrog24 on November 20th, 2009 04:41 pm (UTC)
DWJ isn't bad overall, but the ending of HMC just didn't add up. Meyer's one clear superiority to DWJ is that she has solid foreshadowing and endings. Nothing comes out of the blue at the end or sticks out for no reason.

Wouldn't put Meyer near Tolkein or Gaiman. Tolkein meticulously researched old legends and extrapolated them backwards, creating a completely original genre that captured the hearts and imaginations of millions. Gaiman is just freakin' magic.